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Aug 17, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26
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#21 | |||||
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London, UK
Guild: Rite Of Passage [RP]
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
Prot monks are far better than anything a rit can do to protect a team (there is no question here, pvp or pve). Sure I speak of PvP mainly but in PvE even, why are people not allowing the tank to take aggro? There's no need to protect more than 2 or 3 people if players in the team play properly. In PvE the enemy just won't be smart enough to run into the back-line and remove a spirit manually like they theoretically would in pvp. so physical removal is a non-issue in my book. Enchantment removal is not currently huge in the game, but all it takes is for one update to change this. This change to make buff spirits more active makes them approach (and in a very few ways, surpass) Monk prot options in some environments. In most situations monks will still be stronger, but then that's all that monks can effectively do. It wouldn't be fair to take that away from them. Quote:
Plus Weapon spells can't be stacked. Neither can this bound spirit idea, but the AoE effects 'can' be stacked if you play smart  . In say PvE, you could stack AoE Shelter on one tank and AoE Displacement on another. Both receive the benefits if they fight 'nearby' each other. It's very similar to the old system but it's far more focused, rewarding good play and punishing bad. Which is what a skill should always do.Quote:
In 99% of those situations, I bet a good prot monk would have been better hands down. Only in areas of heavy removal does the prot monk's dominance begin to look shaky. Even then they are still usually better.... Similarly a prot monk can save someone in PvP with an RoF+Infuse which is very (VERY!) hard to stop. No Spirit spam can save anyone without it being an accident, and happy accidents have no real value in PvP... Quote:
In a competitive game you can't have passive stuff being better or even as good as active stuff. It just breaks things if you do. The element of pve isn't really a major issue because pve is as easy as you want it to be. Enemies don't 'look' for your weaknesses and collapse on it. They are not out to crush your team in any and every way possible. They play like they always play so we can all relax and have fun playing instead of worrying about high-end stressful tactics. That is what pvp is for. Still that is neither here nor there. This proposed system is as better than the old in both game types. Quote:
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Aug 17, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27
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#22 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2006
Profession: Rt/
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Edit: darn server deleted half the post.
To sum up the redesign concept so far: 1. Spirits are bound to targets; Attack spirits follow the assigned target until it dies with only one attack spirit bound to one target. 2. Spirits created without a target binding have the behavior of the current self discriminate type of spirits. If the bound target dies, the spirit becomes self discriminate. 3. Protection spirits must be bound to an ally. These spirits have AoE effects on nearby allies. This allows indirection effect stacking. 4. Drawing an attack spirit removes its binding. Protection spirits lose their binding if the target moves out of range for more than 2 seconds. Considerations: Energy, cast time, duration, health, and descriptions would need to be reworked. PvP Considerations
PvE Considerations
The following skills would need to be reworked as well: Signet of Ghostly Might: simply increases spirit duration change to 20 seconds. 10 seconds is too low. Balanced through kiting ability and moving out of range. Painful Bond: This skill now redirects the nearest spirit's target binding onto a new unbound target. Armor of Unfeeling: Binding rituals will generally cast faster, removing any use for this skill in its current form. Possible alteration: Enchantment spell. If target ally is bound to a spirit, they have a 10 base damage reduction for 8-17 seconds. Last edited by Calen The Civl; Aug 17, 2007 at 02:43 PM // 14:43.. |
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Aug 17, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00
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#23 | |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Columbia, Missouri
Guild: Looking for one
Profession: Rt/
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Quote:
Ok, I see what you are getting at, I guess it would still retain uniqueness while still providing some usefulness. |
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Sep 01, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42
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#24 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Aug 2007
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I was thinking, should somebody (else
 ) submit this into the suggestion forum? I think the ideas presented here might be able to get some consideration.
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Sep 02, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32
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#25 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2006
Profession: Rt/
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Quote:
Does anyone else have further ideas to add to the discussion? I have rather let this thread grow stagnant  .
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Sep 02, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46
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#26 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: Rt/N
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Forgive me for sounding a bit egocentric, but where in your design scheme does Rit/N Minion Bombers fit in? Surely you're not suggesting that minions go by the charge system? I didn't think you did, but it would make minions more viable in Hard Mode and corpse-light areas.
Otherwise, good job on the ideas here. So far in GWEN I've had to switch to a Rit Lord build twice, and I can definitely see how a better Spirit management system would encourage me to expand my horizons a bit more. |
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Sep 04, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05
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#27 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I like the idea of binding a spirit to a person but without a way to sever that bond to end the affect it could get really annoying. To counter this maybe physically create a spirit in 1 place like before but still tie the affect to a person meaning that the spirit can be killed while still providing mobility. If this seems overpowered to some then perhaps a negative effect could introduced. I.e while u are tied to an otherworldy presence you suffer -1 health degen or something minorish like that. No idea waht you guys will think of that.
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Sep 04, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31
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#28 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2006
Profession: Rt/
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Quote:
The charge system has pretty much been dropped in favor of spirit binding. -------- Spirit binds/spirit training would still keep the spirit immobile. They would just have an AoE effect around whomever they are bound onto. Duration, casting times, and other considerations would have to be modified as well. Making the defensive spirits closer to protection spells but with the targeted AoE abilities is what would set the skills apart from the protection spells. Agony and Rejuvenation would benefit from such a change. As it stands now, those spirits are almost useless because of their tendency to die quickly. Signets of Binding and Creation along with 2-3 Spirit Boon casts just cant keep them alive long enough for them to be helpful in many situations. |
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Sep 05, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55
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#29 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Semi-Active Spirits: Good, bad, or ugly?
Well, I'd argue Agony and Rejuvenation are bad because they have an effect equal to their life, and I believe they only have about 190 health (sans Spawning Power) at 12 attribute points. However, I digress.
I was contemplating any ways to keep the freaky AOE effect of spirits so that they remained at least vaguely similar to the "other" rituals (Nature Rituals), and I came up with a different concept: semi-active skills. Before I explain this, I'm not trying to contest the binding mechanic that was developed here, but just trying to illustrate another potential avenue that spirits could take en route to being "fixed". The idea behind "semi-active" skills is that spirits provide additional effects to active skills, rather than being purely passive or active. In this fashion, spirits either operate as shutdown, area-control, or pressure damage. I had a "fix" for every binding ritual before, but the forum ate it, so I'll only list a few standouts (my comments are in italics): Agony 10e/3c/30r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. Foes in earshot of this spirit lose 1...3 health each second, and foes in range of this spirit who are inflicted with a condition lose an additional 1...5 health each second. This spirit dies after 30...65 seconds. The idea is that this skill now improves skills that allies use that cause conditions. The health loss was full of fail, so I removed it here. I boosted the level for survivability; it won't have much effect, as it is still fragile, but it's helpful if they get caught in a minor AOE. Bloodsong 5e/3c/30r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. When an ally casts a spell dealing lightning damage to a foe within range of this spirit, the damage dealt is reduced by 1...20 and that ally steals 1...20 health from that foe. This spirit dies after 20...30 seconds. I think this has FAR more utility than before. However, I think that I made the condition a bit too broad; it can be reduced to just spells in Channeling Magic if I misjudged things and gave it too much utility. I was kinda hoping for some class synergy, though. Pain 5e/3c/30r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. Foes in range of this spirit who become hexed are set on fire for 1...3 seconds. This spirit dies after 20...30 seconds. The name sounds kinda necromancery, so I tried to give it some necromancer synergy, although mesmers get some good mileage too. Disenchantment 25e/5c/45r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. Every 3 seconds, when a foe within range of this spirit is struck by a critical hit, they lose one enchantment. This spirit dies after 30 seconds. I'm thinking the range might be best reduced to earshot. The time restriction is to prevent assassins from demolishing dervishes or GftE! leading to massive party-wide disenchantment. One enchantment at more than the original attack rate, but with no damage, unblockable, and up to the allies to trigger. Displacement 15e/3c/45r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. Enchanted allies within range of this spirit block a percentage of attacks equal to the recharge time of the enchantment with the longest recharge time on them (maximum 50). This spirit dies after 20...30 seconds. I didn't even try to balance this, but it just popped into my head and sounded interesting. I'm a bit worried about attunements and conjures, but seeing as how one enchantment removal defeats that plan, it might not be so bad, as most other long recharge enchantments I've noticed generally appear to have short durations. Maybe throw in the condition that the enchantments cannot be self-applied? I'm having trouble wording this properly already. Shelter 25e/5c/45r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. Allies in range of this spirit cannot take more damage than 50% of their current health from any single attack, but the resultant damage cannot be reduced below 40...20. This spirit dies after 30 seconds. Illusion of Health gets a really good use! More importantly, this is now a consistent anti-spike skill at lower health levels. Any kind of spiking that could be used at this point would probably require deep wound (as opposed to only being very strongly recommended otherwise, but still). Union 15e/3c/45r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. All allies in range of this spirit gain 1...6 armor for every nearby party member. This spirit dies after 25...35 seconds. I can see why this might have interesting consequences in PvE, especially for minion masters (minions count as their own party, I believe). Moreover, the hero AI that often clumps together will actually get a tangible benefit for their idiocy. I don't think it will heavily effect PvP, but I'm open to suggestions. Wanderlust 10e/5c/45r Elite Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. Every 10 seconds, foes in earshot of this spirit who are suffering from a condition are knocked down. After 5 seconds, and every other 5 seconds following that, foes in earshot of this spirit who are suffering from a hex are knocked down. This spirit dies after 10...30 seconds. It sounds complicated, but it just means that it alternates between knocking down condition-sufferers and hex-sufferers every 5 seconds. A bit more interesting than the "standing still" condition, especially because the allied team has to do something for it to take effect, rather than the enemies. Perhaps it's too strong? Too weak? Too conditional? Preservation 5e/3c/20r Elite Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. Whenever a Ritualist spell is cast on an ally within range of this spirit, that ally is healed for 5...20 health. This spirit dies after 30 seconds. I'm uncertain if this is good or not. There are a number of spammable weapon spells, and there's always AR, yet I don't think it's too strong. If I totally missed something important, or if the healing really is a big deal, it can always be made more restricted somehow. Recuperation 25e/3c/45r Binding Ritual. Create a level 1...10 Spirit. Allies in range of this spirit gain health each second equal to 1...5 for every 50% their maximum health exceeds their current health (minimum of 1...5). This spirit dies after 90 seconds. Paired with the new Shelter, and you'll not be able to effectively spike a team with a Rt so long as these spirits are active; poetic justice for the old Rt spike. To clarify, at max attribute, an ally with 100/500 (exceeded by 400%) health will be healed for 20 each second, and an ally with 400/500 (exceeded by only 25%) will be healed for 5 each second (due to the minimum). One other minor skill change: Painful Bond (same e/c/r) Hex Spell. Target foe takes 1...10 damage per second while in earshot of an enemy spirit. And while I'm at it, perhaps to be considered independently of my other changes: Spawning Power - For every 3 points in Spawning Power, summoned creatures gain one additional level. For every point in Spawning Power, the duration of Item Spells and Weapon Spells is extended by 2%. This being prompted by the fact that spirits are really, really fragile. They'd still be pretty weak, even with these changes (a stationary level 15 has about 350 health), but now Rt minion masters can compete with N minion masters in general, and spirits might just survive a single AOE attack (due mostly to the armor bonuses)! Plus I felt it odd that urns got no bonuses from SP. There ya have it. I gotta know, is this good, bad, or ugly? Edit: I forgot to change the spirit's e/c/r costs to reflect their new functions. Ah, I'm too lazy to fix it; just pretend they're what they should be. |
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Sep 05, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24
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#30 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: Rt/N
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[QUOTE=Aethon]Spawning Power - For every 3 points in Spawning Power, summoned creatures gain one additional level. For every point in Spawning Power, the duration of Item Spells and Weapon Spells is extended by 2%.
This being prompted by the fact that spirits are really, really fragile. They'd still be pretty weak, even with these changes (a stationary level 15 has about 350 health), but now Rt minion masters can compete with N minion masters in general, and spirits might just survive a single AOE attack (due mostly to the armor bonuses)! Plus I felt it odd that urns got no bonuses from SP. If a given Rit had 16 Spawning, that would give minions 5 levels, granting whatever health/armor/attack-power that is. In essence, you'd be giving Rits higher level stuff to compensate for fewer minions. I still don't think it'll work, especially since you're taking away most of the +64% health. Against lvl 24-28 monsters who like to AOE, minions are still too fragile, suffer too much degen, and people will still prefer Necros over Rits. Maybe if they had 5 levels AND +something health, but I'm over-reacting. |
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Sep 05, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31
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#31 |
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Master of Beasts
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
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Much dislike for the ideas here.
Agree that the whole skill set needs work, but particularly disliking Aethon's attempt to take the active spirits and change them to passive ones. |
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Sep 06, 2007, 01:19 AM // 01:19
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#32 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2006
Profession: Rt/
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@ Aethon
While your ideas have some interesting elements, they are still too passive. Effects are just more conditional instead of being active. Active skills are actions that need to be done at the appropriate times for the appropriate situations. Casting Guardian, for example, on a poor guy in a Meteor Shower would not help as much as Protective Spirit for example. Many of your spirit changes are overpowered for pvp groups. Although I do understand you are trying to retain the Nature Ritual like effects. ------ Spawning Power does need to be examined a little. A ranger binding spirits would likely be more effective than a primary ritualist would be because of Expertise. The weapon spell influence was a nice addition but further modification needs to be done to tie the rest of the skill trees into the profession. ----- @Epinephrine What do you dislike about which ideas thus far? What ideas do you have to add to the topic? |
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Sep 06, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49
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#33 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2006
Guild: Zealots of Shiverpeak [ZoS]
Profession: Rt/
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...quite frankly, I didn't realize we were a broken class. Maybe I'm in the minority.
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Sep 06, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19
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#34 |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada
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Personally I'm not in the category of people who want the ritualist improved, I'm in the category of the people huddling in fear hoping ArenaNet doesn't lay out another nerf because of how powerful we already are.
I'm also hoping the ritualist class won't be removed for Guild Wars 2, but I have an uneasy feeling that ArenaNet would like to just remove us so as to not have to bother with the complaints that Ritualists are either too powerful or not powerful enough. |
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Sep 06, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50
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#35 | |
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Master of Beasts
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
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Quote:
What don't I like? Well, the idea of charges rather than health is ok, but I don't like the thought of attack-proofing spirits. I was glad when nature rituals went frmo being global effects to being a very counterable spirit. I don't like the idea of essentially reducing spirits to enchants/hexes by "attaching" them to things. I don't like the incredibly passive approach Aethon suggested. Sorry that I can't suggest anything much - I like most of how a ritualist functions now, even if I find aspects of it weak. I'd like to see the insignia or carrying an item (herald's) boosted in power. +10 is a joke; most insignia offer an actual gain in AL when you use that condition, filling your hands however loses you AL to start with. I'd like to see more power in the ashes spells - many simply aren't useful enough, given that you give up wanding, energy, armour or health equivalents etc. I'd like to see better usefulness out of the spawning power skill list. Rupture Soul can be great, but too many of the skills are weak or ineffective. |
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Sep 06, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01
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#36 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Nov 2006
Profession: Rt/
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Thank you, Epinephrine. I appreciate the clarification. I agree that items spells can sometimes be a liability instead of an asset.
I greatly enjoy the ritualist mechanics as they are currently. (I have around 1.5k+ hours on my rit). However, there are areas that are broken such as the defensive spirits and a few item spells being prime areas. I can work with the defensive spirits, but I need to dedicate my entire bar to supporting them in order for them to be helpful. This would be like a protection monk using their bar to support the upkeep of Protective Spirit. I have dropped my charge idea. It was just an idea I saw floating around on the forums and thought to systematize it. ---- It is likely that GW2 will see many classes merged together. I expect to see the ritualist class merged with either the monk class or with the ranger to create a druid like class. However, this is just speculation on my part. ---- One of the problems with ritualist spirits is the lack of primary class bonuses. Health is negligible in most situations; adding one or 2 extra hits really doesnt make that much of a difference. A ranger with decent expertise can actually spam spirits (and add traps) more effectively than a primary ritualist. The problem isnt with Expertise as much as it is with the health bonus of Spawning Power. I would prefer to see a level increase for every 3 or so levels with all the associated health, armor, and perhaps damage or duration increases. I am rather satisfied with most of the Spawning Power skills. Some, like Consume Soul, are just too situational however. |
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Sep 06, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31
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#37 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: Aug 2007
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The examples I gave were just to illustrate my idea, but I fully understand your points (although I wouldn't say I made them more passive than they already were). Yeah, the idea was to make them like one-sided nature rituals (Soothing is already kinda in that role), but I suppose that it might not be the best avenue to pursue. And I'll admit, I was a bit muddled by the whole passive/active thing; I won't make that mistake again.
In retrospect, it makes sense why my previous relation of binding rituals and nature rituals is flawed - because they fill different roles for their respective professions (I heard that Nature Rituals were environmental effects at one point; I assume that's what Ep. was talking about). So how about this: If you target an ally with a healing/protection spirit, it is made at/near their location, and their effective ranges are reduced to earshot or less. If you target a foe with an offensive spirit, it gives them targeting priority, and these spirits should also accept suppressed target calls. Some alterations to specific spirit effects will probably still need to be done before they get used, changes or not (Agony, Rejuvenation, Preservation, &c., &c.). As an addendum, I'd really like Spawning Power to do something differently, even if it wasn't exactly as I wrote above. Urns should get something from it, and spirits should get something more from it (given that many spirits don't take damage from their effects, and in fact two *gain* health). I'm not sure how to present it, but perhaps we can bring our grievances here: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...powered_Skills Also, I was trying to find the episode of Weapon of Choice in which Izzy talked about Ritualists, but I can't find it. I saw a reference at GWO but it's only hearsay. I was thinking it might be able to bring some of the reasons behind the balancing changes to Ritualists to light. Otherwise I guess we could just ask.
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